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Golden Sabre 230 gr vs 185

14K views 64 replies 21 participants last post by  NonPCnraRN 
#1 ·
For personal protection ammo which would you guys recommend?
Im assuming that 185 may overpenetrate. What are the benefits of using either grain?
 
#2 ·
The data that I have seen generally shows that the 230 gr penetrate deeper than 185. .45 penetration isn't all that great to start with, barely reaching the FBI recommended minimums.

I strongly disagree with the worry about overpenetration. People worry about an on target bullet going through the target and exiting at greatly reduced speed yet don't worry about the misses that go flying past the target at full speed:confused: Most shots miss the target. Yes, I know we would all love to believe that every shot we fire is going to be precise center of mass. It just doesn't happen that way in real life defensive situations.

Here is a commentary on the subject by the respected Dr. Roberts:

Dr. Gary Roberts says this:
Quote:
Failures to stop a suspect because of under-penetration, poor bullet placement, and completely missing the target are far more significant problems than over-penetration. With shots to the center of mass, if a handgun or rifle bullet fails to have enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels and organs in the torso, rapid physiological incapacitation is unlikely and an opponent may remain a lethal threat to officers and citizen bystanders. Conversely, if a bullet fired by officers completely penetrates a violent criminal and exits downrange, the bullet will certainly have had enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels or organs in the torso. As a result, it is more likely to have caused sufficient hemorrhage to induce hypovolemic shock--the only reliable method of physiological incapacitation in the absence of CNS trauma.
Unfortunately, according to the available published date, the majority of shots fired in the field by U.S. LE officers miss their intended target. According to published NYPD SOP-9 data, the NYPD hit ratio by officers against perpetrators in 2000 was 12.3% of shots fired and in 2001 13.5% of shots fired. The Miami Metro-Dade County PD had hit ratios ranging between 15.4% and 30% from 1988-1994. Portland PD reported hits with 43% of shots fired at adversaries from 1984-1992, while Baltimore PD reported a 49% average hit ratio from 1989-2002.
Given that the reported averages for LE officers actually hitting the suspect ranges between 12% to 49% of shots fired, more concern should be given to the between 51-88% of shots fired by LE officers which completely MISS the intended target and immediately result in a significant threat to any person down range, rather than excessively worry about the relatively rare instance where one of the 12%-49% of shots fired actually hits the intended target and then exits the perpetrator in a fashion which still poses a hazard.
In short, the consequences of projectile under-penetration are far more likely to get officers and citizens killed than over-penetration issues.
 
#3 ·
So would you rather have the dimensions of the .45 with increase volocity of the 185 gr.?
The reason I ask this is that I liked the golden sabre and when i purchased it they only had the 185 gr which prompted me to look at its performance. I noticed that there is a major difference in velocity from the 230 gr that i reload and usually carry as compared to the 185 gr. I have read that the 230 gr load is know for its slower velocities as compared to the 9mm. So it would seem that the 185 gr would be a choice.
 
#4 ·
There is no value going into the caliber debate, that's been discussed a few million times (maybe more) with no consensus.

In .45 yes, 230 gr bullets travel slower than 185 gr bullets. However, once they meet an obstruction (e.g. body tissue), they usually penetrate deeper since they lose energy slower (which is easier to stop, a bicycle going 30 mph, or a freight train going 25 mph?)

Obviously some people like the 185gr or they wouldn't be selling it. But many of us consider the 230 gr to be a better performer.

OTOH, in 9mm and .357, the lighter, faster (115) bullets generally have a better reputation than the heavier (147-158gr) bullets.

There are no clear cut, simple answers.

Ken
 
#5 ·
230 grain is what I use. If I were using a very small, lightweight gun I might consider the 185 gr. for decreased recoil (if there is any decrease), but if you're going to carry a .45 might as well carry the heavier bullet. If you want faster and lighter, use a different caliber.
 
#6 ·
I like the 185gr in my commander length pistols. It shoots hotter and feels better. FTW I also prefer to lighter weight range ammo for the commanders when I can get it, but then again I'm not in a position to evaluate bullet performance against people.. Ron
 
#10 ·
I am of the opinion that if you are going to shoot a .45, you might as well shoot heavy bullets (200 grain or over), and if you are going to shoot lighter bullets (under 200 grain) then you might as well stick with the .40 or 9mm.
 
#34 ·
Would you care to elaborate?

I carry a 9mm most of the time, I am not getting into which one is better.... I just can't see how a lighter .45acp bullet would equal a .40 or 9mm, does the .45acp gets smaller? :biglaugh:
 
#12 ·
no 185-grain projectile that i am aware of, beyond the Barnes Solid Copper TacXP/XPB, has passed the full FBI protocol tests in .45 ACP. The 230gr Golden Sabre load is a golden standard in hollowpoints, and shows excellent penetration and expansion characteristics. This is your best bet.
 
#25 ·
What he said... I generally use 230 gr. FMJ-FP, but for hollow point loads I use the Rem. 230 bonded Golden Saber because it has a rock solid rep for getting the job done when it counts.
 
#15 ·
Except that Ball rounds have a reduced wound channel profile, and are suboptimal in terms of tissue damage along the wound path. You are far better off, if you are looking for a cheap method for both carry and target, using a wadcutter bullet as it works exceptionally well.
 
#17 ·
That is a nice anecdotal statement however in a myriad of studies that are scientifically documented, ball ammunition shows a significantly long average time of engagement over a flat nosed bullet such as a properly expanded hollowpoint. Thousands of cases document significantly shorter durations of engagements using modern bullet designs, and even wadcutter profile projectiles.

For duty use, and most pointedly self defense, the shorter the engagement time, the less chance of injury. Time is critical.
 
#26 ·
I provided a little reading material for your consideration – obviously with your vast experience in such matters, it didn’t pass muster – so be it.

Speaking for myself, I didn’t see anything that would discredit Master Guns’ information throughout that topic – but then again, I’ve only been up close and personal to a few people who took unfriendly rounds into their bodies, so I have very limited experience & knowledge of such things in life.
 
#27 ·
I can only tell you what I have seen, and what trauma surgeons and coroners I've talked to, have seen. I've been there a couple of times.

And his data isn't wrong per se, it's simply based on inaccurate information and thus is inaccurate as well. I detailed as to why. I'm sure that if we were to sit down and hash it out, that the data would be reconcilable.
 
#29 ·
Blah,blah,blah... Anything you choose to carry is just a guess anyways. There are too many variables to worry about. There is no magic bullet. I think you should just pick something that works in your gun and be done with it. Shoot until the threat stops. DRT makes ammo that they claim causes fatal injury on impact. Some form of granules that instantly destroy any tissue. If one was looking for the best wouldn't that qualify? I would hate to have to explain to a jury how my ammo was guarranteed to kill as oppose to stop.
 
#47 ·
I find myself in the rare situation of backing up what DK said. A test was done in Handloader Magazine with 45 ACP 185 gr ammo and 230 gr ammo of the same brand. The long and short of it is (pun intended) that the 185 gr ammo continued to increase velocity and energy up to 24 inches of barrel length. The 230 gr ammo peaked at 14-16 inches and at 24 inches was the same as at 5 inches.

So, the idea that the lighter bullet will attain higher velocity and energy sooner than the 230 gr ammo isn't true. The heavier bullet as I said previously is less dependent on barrel length to be effective whether ball or hp. One of the falacies of the "show me the data argument" is that a lot of general knowledge is achieved through experience (shooting people or hunting) but not documented. DK and I have gone around and around regarding the use of wide meplat hardcast bullets vs hollowpoints. My data is anecdotal and not contained in a study. Guys that hunt know the value of a 45cal chunk of lead with a flat nose for creating a hole much larger than what you would expect.

Since he knows I value penetration (being a hardcast large meplat bullet shooter) he recommended the DPX ammo. That is what I carry. He says it penetrates better than most other HPs. He has done the research and probably mumbles it in his sleep. So I am not going to get eyestrain reading all the material he can provide. I have come to the conclusion that if DK has done the research and says something about HP ammo I don't make him reinvent the wheel. I just take his word for it. Now if I could just get him to say WFN instead of wadcutter.......:) But us old curmudgeons don't change easily.
 
#48 ·
I'll have to back up what you just said. The Hornady FMJ-FP that I use was designed to provide increased lethality via the flat nose, and better penetration than standard round nose FMJ. I can attest to both of those facts, as I've stated before.

I was also going to note that jacket separation is not uncommon in light for caliber bullets when they are not bonded to the core. The 230 gr. GS bullets I've bought from two different places are bonded and penetrated as well as the FMJ loads I've tested.

Just another alternative to add to the list of choices.
 
#58 ·
My one reservation with the Wound Ballistics Workshop articles like the one linked is that they are done by law enforcement and sponsored by Federal/ATK. While this is in and of itself not a bad thing, one of the trickiest parts of Ballistics Gel is that it has to be kept a certain temperature and calibrated just so, and is very finicky.

Being an Amature Professional™ :)D), I'm not casting aspersions on anyone involving the testing, but I don't believe much in there is detailed about temperatures and controls, etc.

I'm also ALWAYS suspicious and hesitant to accept data that comes from manufacturer's testing directly, or from manufacturer-sponsored tests at face value. Call me cynical, call me foolish, but I tend to believe it's much like asking Ford Motor Company to do an unbiased, honest assessment of the durability of their vehicles compared to another company's. When looking at cars, I prefer to look in Consumer Reports and other sources of unbiased info coming from a non-affiliated source.

The ammunition manufacturer is certainly going to want to test their products, especially those that they intend to sell to the law enforcement community. However, until I can see the same tests performed by other individuals with no connection to the original manufacturer with data to compare to what the original manufacturer shows as the results, I'll take manufacturer data with a grain of salt.
 
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